An Interview with
Lee Red Oak Johnson

Eclectic Pagan

Tell us a little about yourself. How would you define who you are as a person?

Oh, this is going to be one of those introspection things. Who am I as a person? I'm really no different than most people. I take, and I give. I laugh and I cry. I try to always be as honest as I can, truthful and upfront, but I am not immune to human flaws. I can sometimes be in your face, or sit in the shadows, watching, waiting, learning.

If you would like to know about my mundane existence. I am a family man, having a beautiful wife and daughter. My craft is that of architecture and all things revolving around that field. I work with my hands and mind, and I speak best with my fingers on a keyboard. To allow my thoughts to be expressed through the written word allows my mind to flow. When I open my mouth, I tend to stumble. I tend to keep to myself in my personal life, not by choice or necessity, but by nature.

Where does your inspiration for your e-zine Red Oaks Tavern come from?

Wherever my own interests in the Occult and Witchcraft lie. Sometimes, something comes my way that I have little personal interest in, but is an interesting topic nontheless, and so others might find it so.

Are you a Pagan? What is your personal spiritual path?

I'd say I am a Pagan, but wouldn't like to limit myself to such. I am also a Witch, a Heathen (I say this because I have interests in the Anglo-Saxon as well as the Traditional Folklore and Cunning Arts of the British Isles), and I am also a Chaos Mage. Those being my main areas of focus in spiritual practice, I also draw inspiration from Shamanism, Toltec Warrior Path, Ceremonial and Ritual Magick, Hermeticism and others. I guess this also answers the previous question :o) So, I prefer not to label myself as having any particular spiritual path apart from My Path or which has been labelled somewhat in private, the Red Path. The Red Path walks between the White and the Black Path.

Does your wife and family share your interest in Paganism? Are you open about your involvement in the magic arts with them?

Kind of a difficult question to answer actually. My wife's chosen spiritual path is Christianity, although she is very open to my path and all that comes with it. My daughter is still getting to know what she wants to become. Being 7 is a wonderful age. We tend to show her all that we can without drawing lines or defining, or pushing, so she can make up her own mind as she grows. And yes, I am very open with my practice to my family. I will say this though. I was once very quiet and secretive about it. Being in love with my wife also came with the fear that she would reject me for what I am in my spiritual path. It's a silly viewpoint, but one that many can't help, being human. It did cause problems, but not because I was a Witch, or a Pagan, or an Occultist, it was a problem because I was not open and trusting of her. I understood that afterward and felt rather stupid that I had not trusted her to love me for who I am, which she does. Strange world we live in sometimes.

Tell us more about Chaos Magick?

I hate defining things :o) Chaos is a state of constant flux and change. The result of Chaos is a balance between Disorder and Order. Chaos Magick works with this principal in mind. It is about breaking down barriers that the Ego puts up and becoming all that you can be. Removing bonds and chains brought about by belief and understading that you do not have to be
tied to a belief in anything in order to Be.

What is the Toltec Warrior Path?

The Toltec Warrior Path was made known to the world by Carlos Castaneda. Although there are many things told about him, indicating that he was a fraud, or this and that, his methods as described by him in his books and the teachings of don Juan Matus, do work, and they make a great deal of sense if you take the time to read and understand. The Warrior Path is about overcoming the Ego so that it may yeild to you, in order for you to reach the Self and Reality. This is done in one of two ways, depending on the person you are, although many do walk both. You can either be a Stalker or a Dreamer. For a Stalker the path is ventured very much in the conscious state of being. The Warrior will expand into Reality through altered states of consciousness and such. The Dreamer does this through the Dreaming Body, venturing through the various Gates of Dreaming. I'm very much a Stalker, Stalking the Ego, Self and Reality, or the Tonal and Nagual.

What about these paths interests you?

I have always been interested in the Occult, from the time I was a child. At the age of 12 I was fascinated by the books of Tuesday Lobsang Rampa. Through the years I have looked into various other Occult fields. Chaos Magick allows me to express that part of me which is interested in the Occult without having to confine myself to one mode of thought. The Toltec Path has aided me a great deal in expressing the Mystic that lies within. The explanations and understandings which come through from it help me to understand other areas of interest. I also have a faint scent of Mexican blood, and Toltec has been the most accessible of the Mexican Tribes.

You say, "The Red Path walks between the White and the Black Path." Would you consider yourself as a bridge between White and Black in practice?

You could say that. Although there is more to it. The Red is the between state of the Black and White. Red is the Land, Black is the Underworld or the Sea, and White is the Overworld, the Sky. I am here, between Sea and Sky. In a Qabalistic sense, the Red is the Middle Pillar of Mildness.

How do you define Black Magic/k as opposed to White Magic/k?

Black Magic is an inward expression. It focuses on the here and now, the me and the corporeal. White Magic focuses on an outward expression, the ascend of the spirit out of the corporeal form. If we are to be whole, we need a balance between all things that we are. We are spirit, but we are also body. To go up, you must first go down. And if we consider Reality in its true lateral form, there is no up or down, there is only entirety. As Above, so Below, as Below, so Above. Malkuth into Kether, Kether in Malkuth. I think, therefore I am, I am, therefore I think, blah, blah, blah.

What are your general thoughts on Paganism and Pagans in South Africa?

I'm very happy with where we are. Sure we have problems, who doesn't. If we didn't have problems we would not be able to progress, and if we stop moving forward, through each and every hurdle that we face, then we stop being Pagan, we stop being human, and then, we stop existing. And your next question would be, "What problems do you think we have as Pagans in South Africa?" To tell you truth, I don't really know. But I hope we do have problems for the reasons stated above. We do have strife between people and groups. There are those that want to prove themselves to others, to possibly prove themselves to be better. Mostly, this is human nature and will always exist. The idea of a Pagan Utopia, where all Pagans are loving and kind to each other is ridiculous. It's all a poetic expression of Chaos. Order and Disorder in constant motion.